Re-”Casting” Dr. Brian Irwin’s Book, After Dispensationalism - Book Conversation and Convocation Book Launch
Summary:
In this episode of the Ministry Forum Podcast, brings together highlights from a series of conversations with Dr. Irwin, including excerpts from his formal book launch and a lively discussion with Knox alumni, colleagues, and friends.
Dr. Irwin’s book takes a deep dive into dispensationalism, a theological framework that has shaped how many Christians interpret scripture and think about the end times. Whether you’re curious about dispensationalism, intrigued by the challenge of interpreting apocalyptic literature, or simply seeking encouragement in ministry, this episode is an engaging and thought-provoking listen.
Quotables:
It is the way of looking at scripture, that most people who are really enamored with end times thinking and speculation. That's the tool that they're using in order to think about how scripture applies and what it tells about the end of the world. And so, most of the people that you see on TV, on YouTube, people like Hal Lindsey and so on, they come from a dispensationalist background. They're not to be confused with people like David Koresh and Jim Jones, who aren't dispensationalists. They were sort of isolated people on their own who just saw themselves at the heart of end times. You know, they placed themselves in Daniel and Revelation and such. So they're a different animal altogether. - Dr. Brian Irwin
Things that characterize dispensationalism over against most other approaches is belief in a future tribulation and a rapture. So a two stage return of Christ, one first stage where he comes to the heavens. People are caught up, those believer, dead and alive or caught up and taken to heaven to be with Christ. That leaves the earth denuded of Christians as people through whom the Holy Spirit can work. And so, things go disastrously wrong and so. And then you have Christ, Christ's final return, which ushers in the future millennium, 1000 years of direct rule by Christ.
The other thing that characterizes dispensationalism, significantly from other systems, is that it sees God as still working through his Old Testament people, the Jewish people. - Dr. Brian Irwin
As far as how I got to write a book like this, I grew up in this context, which was dispensationalism in its outlook, this church I grew up in. But it wasn't something almost nobody would have known what the term dispensationalism was about. It was just kind of the water around the fish in in the church I grew up in. - Dr. Brian Irwin
You will recognize, if you've been in one of my classes, that I just did inductive studies of Daniel, Ezekiel, Revelation, and tried to make some statement about the what I thought was the big idea of each book, in the hopes that people would find their way from there to commentaries and other resources that would help them flesh out things. - Dr. Brian Irwin
We have scripture, and we use scripture to understand how to live in the present, right, in the world God's put us in. And with people who are really obsessed with end times, and not all dispensationalists are absolutely as obsessed with end times, but when you're obsessed with end times, the scripture, the news, becomes a way of interpreting scripture, not the other way around, right? And that's a point we make at the very end of the book, that you use the bible to help you understand the world in which you live in and how to how to live in it. - Dr. Brian Irwin
And the basic thing is, you know, it had to have made sense to the original audience. First and foremost, that's who God gave this material to. And if we're the only people that can understand it, then it's a sick joke on the people that first received it. And so that's the place that I always tend to start. - Dr. Brian Irwin
About Dr. Brian Irwin
Brian enjoys guiding students toward a better understanding of the culture and setting of the Bible and helping them acquire the tools to exegete and apply it in a responsible and life-changing way. His areas of teaching and research are Old Testament interpretation, Hebrew, Joel and Amos, eschatology, and Israelite history and religion. Brian is frequently invited as a guest lecturer and preacher in a variety of denominational settings. He is an active member of Glenbrook Presbyterian Church, Mississauga.
He is currently working on the Joel and Amos volume in the Apollos Old Testament Commentary Series for IVP-UK.
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Transcript
[Introduction]
Welcome. Welcome to the ministry Forum Podcast coming to you from the Center for Lifelong Learning at Knox College, where we connect, encourage and resource ministry leaders all across Canada as they seek to thrive in their passion to share the gospel. I am your host, the Reverend John Borthwick, Director of the Center and curator of all that is ministryforum.ca. I absolutely love that I get to do what I get to do, and most of all that, I get to share it all with all of you. So thanks for taking the time out of your day to give us a listen. Whether you're a seasoned ministry leader or just beginning your journey, this podcast is made with you, in mind.
[John Borthwick]
We're so glad that you joined us for today's episode. Today, it's a kind of compilation of recordings all related to our own Knox College professor, Dr Brian Irwin's most recent book, After Dispensationalism: Reading the Bible for the End of the World. One of our earliest projects at the Center for Lifelong Learning was to convene a conversation around Brian's newest book, with a collection of Knox alumni, colleagues and friends.
I had noticed that there was a group of individuals talking about Brian's book on Facebook, and there seemed to be some kind of germination around getting a conversation started. I popped in and said, hey, I think that's what I'm supposed to be doing at Knox College, in my new gig. I'd be happy to help facilitate that for you and for your colleagues. The response was really positive, and so we made it happen. I've often found in my career that it wasn't that people didn't want to get together, it was that they seemed to lack the energy, the forethought, or maybe planning capacity to make it happen. God, it seems, has given me, in abundance, a gift for this kind of community connectivity or convening. Instead of fighting it, I've sought to embrace it throughout my life and ministry.
So today, in the spirit of experimentation with our podcast platform, we are trying something a little different. This will be a compilation of some bits and pieces from our zoom conversations with Brian about his book and some excerpts from his formal book launch that was held at Knox College in conjunction with our convocation in May of 2024. For further resources or details on how to get yourself a copy of the book. Check out our show notes, found on our Ministry Forum podcast website. So settle in and prepare to be amazed by a romp through the world of dispensationalism. Starting with what is dispensationalism? Anyway?
[Brian Irwin]
So dispensationalism. I'll tell you a bit about my background. So I grew up, I didn't grow up in the Presbyterian Church. I grew up in a church called Arendelle Bible Chapel, which my parents helped found in the early 1960s and it was a church where most of the founders had grown up in what was called the Plymouth Brethren movement. And that was a very low church Protestant movement established in the early 19th century, the 1820s, and one of the leading figures in that movement was a guy named John Nelson Darby. He was an Anglo-Irish fellow, extremely bright, went to Trinity College Dublin, trained as a lawyer, then went on to join the Church of Ireland, became disenchanted with that, hooked up with some people in Dublin at the time who were meeting apart from denominational oversight, and having communion that way. And this movement came to be a sort of a denomination or movement of its own. Darby was significant in that he is the guy who established what is the modern dispensationalist idea or way of looking at scripture. So dispensationalism is really just an interpretative framework for looking at scripture. It's like others, like Covenant Theology and such with which it was in in competition in the 19th century, especially. It sees God as working through history in different ways, in different times, in order to connect with humanity. And so it has like very different, different approaches.
So, for example, there is this age of the law that the two that are most prominent, the age of the law in which God gives the law at Sinai, you obey the law, and in keeping the law, you maintain that relationship with God and so on. And then the church age is the age we are now in, in which people connect to God through Jesus, Christ and his work on the cross and such. And at a future date, there will be another age, known as the millennium, where Christ will return to rule directly, and people will be in direct relationship with God. And Darby had a few other ages sprinkled in there, in the earlier period, before the time of the law as well. And so it's not a really unusual way of looking at things. Covenant Theology does that to a certain extent, but in more in two categories, and what's called progressive dispensationalism narrows the categories to four and such.
But Darby also had this idea of there being a common pattern to each dispensation. So God might reach out in very different ways to connect with human beings in different times, but the pattern is always the same. God reaches out, and some people connect with God. But over time, most people reject God's overture, and they rebel against him, and that brings judgment upon them. And each dispensation ends with some sort of judgment.
But there is within each dispensation a righteous remnant, a small righteous remnant that does endure and accepts God's overture, and they're the ones that carry on the message to the next dispensation, and so on. And so it's an understanding of God's work with humans through history that is pretty predictable, and it becomes rather pessimistic, because it just assumes that, you know, every dispensation, every age past and in the ages in the future are going to end badly, and such.
It is the way of looking at scripture, that most people who are really enamored with end times thinking and speculation. That's the tool that they're using in order to think about how scripture applies and what it tells about the end of the world. And so, most of the people that you see on TV, on YouTube, people like Hal Lindsey and so on, they come from a dispensationalist background. They're not to be confused with people like David Koresh and Jim Jones, who aren't dispensationalists. They were sort of isolated people on their own who just saw themselves at the heart of end times. You know, they placed themselves in Daniel and Revelation and such. So they're a different animal altogether. But it's not when people are looking at scripture and thinking about what it means for the end times, and coming up with ideas about Russia, attacking Israel and so on. They're not just sort of making this up. They're using a particular theological system through which they examine the Bible. And these are the results that they can get. Things that characterize dispensationalism over against most other approaches is belief in a future tribulation and a rapture. So a two stage return of Christ, one first stage where he comes to the heavens. People are caught up, those believer, dead and alive or caught up and taken to heaven to be with Christ. That leaves the earth denuded of Christians as people through whom the Holy Spirit can work. And so, things go disastrously wrong and so. And then you have Christ, Christ's final return, which ushers in the future millennium, 1000 years of direct rule by Christ.
The other thing that characterizes dispensationalism, significantly from other systems, is that it sees God as still working through his Old Testament people, the Jewish people. And so Israel as a nation still has a role to play in God's plan for the world. And so rather than having all of the promises given to Israel being subsumed under the church, dispensationalism says no Israel, some of these promises are exclusive to Israel. They're irrevocable, and so that continues, and God still has a role to play for Israel. But Israel is God's earthly people, so they remain on the earth during the tribulation, and the church is God's heavenly people. And so they're two separate roles for Israel and the Church throughout most of history. So that's dispensationalism, and I guess a little more than a nutshell. Sorry.
As far as how I got to write a book like this, I grew up in this context, which was dispensationalism in its outlook, this church I grew up in. But it wasn't something almost nobody would have known what the term dispensationalism was about. It was just kind of the water around the fish in in the church I grew up in. But you know, if you were talking about end times, it was that dispensationalist narrative that was dominant. And boy, you know, as a kid growing up in the late 60s, early 70s. Hal Lindsey's book had just come out. The 1967 war in Israel, where they captured Jerusalem. And now we're praying at the Wailing Wall, you know, beneath the spot where the temple had once stood and such. And then you had the Yom Kippur War of 1973, and Russia backing all of these Arab countries and so on and so forth. It was really dramatic stuff, especially when you could seem to pick up your newspaper and read about what you were hearing from people like Hal Lindsey and Tim Lauren, and others.
And so I remember having going to a youth bible study at the time, and we studied end times eschatology, and it was absolutely mind bogglingly fascinating to me. You know, it was so exciting to see this stuff. And I was reading the Late Great Planet Earth. And I remember going to my high school, and my history teacher, Mr. Cadman, he was a fascinating guy. And I remember talking to him, and I said, I remember saying to him, but Mr. Cadman, the locusts, their helicopters, you know? And he just kind of said, yeah, okay, Mr. Fundamentalist, which was his nickname for me, and he would regularly refer to me that way in class.
But over time, I started to move beyond Hal Lindsay and just the things he was saying and the connections he was drawing, and I started to actually read my Bible, and read Ezekiel and Daniel and Revelation. And I kept thinking, Oh, I don't know. I guess, are these helicopters, you know? Or is this? I don't see Russia here, you know? I see this as being something that's being given to people in ancient times. But I don't see all of the remarkable connections that these writers were maintaining were there.
And so I sort of had a lot of doubt that was seeded in my mind about, you know, this whole narrative. And so I put it off to the side. But if I had to say, you know, someone asked me, how does the world wind up? I would have given that familiar narrative of, oh, Russia is going to attack Israel, and Christ is going to return his feet. Are going to touch the Mount of Olives and split in two, and so on and so forth.
So I had that in my mind, even if I wasn't so sure I could find it in scripture.
And then fast forward to coming to Toronto, School of Theology, where I was a student at Wycliffe College. And I'd be in these classes with my colleagues, some of whom were, you know, in churches and such. And they'd say, oh, I got this crazy lady in my church, and she's, you know, wanting to know more. She wants us to study more about prophecy. She keeps saying, Russia's, you know, on the march, and China's on the move, and you know, all the signs are there. And why pastor, aren't you? We need to be teaching more about this. And I would, and she's crazy, and she's just driving me bananas. And I just wish she. Go away. And that kind of bugged me too, because I'd say, well, so what would you do with Revelation? And they'd say, well, if I preach revelation, it'll be chapters one to three and beyond that. I'm not going to do anything, you know? And I kept thinking, well, if you don't know what to do with this stuff, don't trash talk some little old lady who could probably quote more scripture than you, and is probably giving a hefty amount to the church that you're situated in at the moment and such.
And so it was those two sort of experiences, and those two groups, the groups represented by each that got me thinking. I really would like to sort this out for myself. And I started by starting up a course at Knox, “You your congregation in the end of the world,” which some of you may have been involved in. And that led to, led to the book. And the idea was, if you've seen the book, it's to explain, in a gracious way to people who are in the movement and not in the movement, what's dispensationalism? How does it function? What's the story it tells? What are the big ways in which it kind of goes off the rails and gets bad results and such. And then looking at the middle of the book, what's the difference between prophecy and apocalyptic, and what does each convey? And how do you read each, and what happens when you confuse the two? And then I the end of the book was just to give people a start on this material without writing a whole commentary on each book. So I dealt with Ezekiel, Daniel, Revelation, and just an inductive study. You will recognize, if you've been in one of my classes, that I just did inductive studies of Daniel, Ezekiel, Revelation, and tried to make some statement about the what I thought was the big idea of each book, in the hopes that people would find their way from there to commentaries and other resources that would help them flesh out things.
One thing I wish I'd done in the book was to put at the end of each chapter a series of resources for where to go next. But by then, it was 110,000 words, and the contract called for 75,000 words. And so my friend Tim Perry, whose name is on the cover here, he's the one that went through and killed off all the pros that I didn't have the heart or the nerve to and such, and he brought it within the within the ballpark of what the publisher wanted. And so that's how you ended up with After Dispensationalism, which sounds like a deconversion story. That's the title the publisher picked it. I like it now, but I'm glad most of my older relatives have passed on to glory now, who are dispensationalists, and because they would have been kind of disappointed, I think, by the title anyway.
[John Borthwick]
That's awesome Brian and such an insight into how one gets books published and what has to happen as a part of that, that journey. Interesting in the first conversation we had, it seemed that some in the group, perhaps it was in the 70s, were traumatized by certain kinds of media. Maybe even sharing what that movie was that kept you up at night, or TV episode that kept you up at night, you can unmute yourselves and ask away.
[Audience Member]
The movie was A Thief in the Night.
[Brian Irwin]
Oh, yes, yeah, I saw that.
[Audience Member]
I don't remember very much of it, but I remember we were in a church basement watching it, and there was this great flash of light or a trumpet or something. It started with something very dramatic, and I just jumped out of my chair and shrieked, as I want to do when I get startled. So I just remember being really spooked. And that whole approach to Jesus coming again, just always made me rather fearful. I'm glad I've been able to leave a lot of that behind and live in more hope, and not even need to know so much just to say Jesus is coming back. He's conquered sin and death. Trust God to look after it. I just find it easier.
[Brian Irwin]
Yes, yeah, A Thief in the Night was the first of a whole series, and I remember seeing that as well. I was, you know, I thought it was fascinating. It was, it was kind of like an action movie. And I just remember my dad saying, oh, this is what they got wrong on the you know, the doctrine, the theological aspect of things. The rapture, which is a key element of that movie was one of those things that was used in all sorts of evangelism. And still is, even in the 19th century and the like. And I've heard all sorts of stories over the years from people who, when they were kids, they got home from school and mom was not home, nobody was home, and they wondered whether the rapture had happened and they'd been left behind, and there was a moment of panic and such, until they actually realized what was going on. So.
[Audience Member]
I remember a sermon a minister gave, and it was just one of those little quips. He says, you know, I woke up, my wife wasn't in bed, and I thought the rapture had happened. It's just amazing how those little, those little anecdotes stick with you and so, you know, I guess I was being kind of fed some dispensationalism as a kid. And, you know, it does kind of form who and what you how you see the world later in life.
[Audience Member]
We were down in a camping in South Carolina, I think. And there was a church there that was called the Alpha and Omega Bible Chapel or something. And it was a Sunday morning, and I expected the parking lot to be full, but there wasn't a car to be seen, and so we just assumed that everybody had been raptured. So you're right, Ernie. I mean, it comes along that way, right? You know? Oh, well, maybe we've been left behind. But you know being raised within a Presbyterian context, that movie I explained to the group earlier at our last meeting was just a revelation for me. I had never heard about these things growing up in the Presbyterian Church. And really took my elderly minister quite to task. And I'm surprised he didn't call me like Miss Fundamentalist or something at that particular point, because it was quite disturbing to him that I'd been listening to some very young Presbyterian theology, but it really put me off the Presbyterian church for a long time, because I felt like we just weren't talking about something that was really, really important, and it was there in the Bible, and they'd even made a movie about it. So, you know, I can see, or I can relate to some congregations of members who likewise say, like, why don't we ever talk about this? So I appreciate your efforts in that regard.
[John Borthwick]
One of the questions that came up, and it's we sort of had a little bit of an inkling of it was just sort of this idea around for the people that come up to us and ask us questions, if we're pastors in churches around, do you think it's the end times, or they're very anxious about the future and what's going to happen, the rapture, all these kinds of things. But at the same time, they would be the same kind of people we would assume, who have a very strong faith in a resurrection hope. And somebody was asking a question related to, you know, when you have a mindset that's framed around the hope of a resurrection, the confidence in that Christ rose from the dead, these kinds of things. But then they have such fear and anxiety related to the future of what, I guess the great tribulation might be, or rapture, all those kinds of things. Can you say anything about that? Brian, just about folks that have are seeing two holding two things at the same time?
[Brian Irwin]
Yeah, I that hasn't been my experience in that when I see people who are, if you believe in a rapture, a pre-tribulational rapture, and this was my sense when I was in high school, because this is like in the mid 1970s right? So the whole Cold War was in full swing, and there were concerns about nuclear, you know, annihilation and that sort of thing. And people were talking about that all the time when I was in high school. And I didn't care, because my understanding of, you know, Jesus in Matthew 24, he's saying, you know, they're going to be rumors of wars and after that, I'll return. And so I thought, Okay, well, this is unfolding as expected, but my understanding of Revelation was that I'm not going to be around for the bad stuff, because I'm going to be raptured anyway. And so, I didn't have any anxiety over the end at all, as my peers did, who were not in the church. But I just didn't, didn't feel that. And so most dispensationalists aren't fearful about that at all. They're interested, and it's because it's kind of like having the inside information on what's going on in the Russian Ukraine war, or what's going on in Gaza, and understanding the geopolitical machinations in the background and that sort of thing, and being quite removed from it, right? So you have that knowledge of what is likely to happen, but you are not in a place where you're going to suffer any of the consequences. So that means you may not be anxious, but it also might mean you're not nearly engaged enough in the in the world and the things that are going wrong, and making efforts to set them right.
And so post-millennialists who were of the mind that you know Jesus, we're in the kingdom now. We're in this millennial kingdom. Things are getting better and better and better, and there'll be a tipping point where things will get so good that Christ will return. That's a very different mindset. And so post-millennialists who were broadly represented among mainline Protestants. They were the ones that were really keen on making the world better, and, you know, advocating for, you know, better labor laws and union, you know, expansion, and world peace and ecumenical stuff and all these sorts of things. I mean, they had missteps, like they were all in on eugenics, right? Because if you want to make the world best fit for Christ's return, why leave human development to evolution and natural selection when we can do that ourselves? And so you create eugenics laws that prevent some people from breeding and so on. And part of that, it doesn't explain why you get residential schools, but it's in keeping with the whole idea of residential schools as creating social progress and that sort of thing. And so there were downsides to that, just as their downsides to dispensationalism, which might detach from society more easily than they should.
[John Borthwick]
Well, I'm curious, Brian, is it when, when you have sort of this inside track, kind of mindset of like, what's going on is all part of the unfolding plan. I can remember when the year 2000 was coming and everybody was worked up about Y2K would dispensationalists, or folks that are really focused on the end times, would they get disappointed a lot as they navigate things? Thinking they have the inside track? Well, this must be it. You know, everything's going to work out, and I'm in anyways, so I'm ready. I've got my bags packed. Whenever the rapture wants to come, like, how do they navigate some of that?
[Brian Irwin]
It's it is there is that? And there are some who do fall into that kind of disappointment and such. But dispensationalists have an amazing capacity to recalibrate and to go back to the calculator, and the spreadsheet, and the timeline and say, where did I get it wrong? Kind of thing. And so there were times where there was not, not formally dispensationalist, but William Miller was a Baptist who preached the end of the world in the late 1830s/1840s and he predicted, you know, he's the forerunner of the Seventh Day Adventists. And so there was this prediction that he and his followers made, a very precise one about a day, particular day in 1843 or something like that. I can't remember, remember exactly, but it's, it's in the beginning of the book. And they, I mean, they followed through on their beliefs, and so they knew they were confident Christ was returning at this point in time. And some people just didn't plant crops. Because why would I plant crops if I'm not going to be around to harvest them? Some people just gave away their property because they thought, you know, why sell it? Because what am I going to do with the money? I'm going to be in heaven and so on. And then they waited through hundreds of 1000s of them in the northeastern United States, waited on hilltops for Christ to return. And when that didn't happen, that was known as “the great disappointment” afterwards. And a lot of people dealt with the ramifications of their actions, and, you know, were embarrassed, shamed and then got into conflict with people, as they wanted their property back and so on.
But in the case of William Miller, they went, he went back to the drawing board and said, oh, Jesus did return. But he returned to cleanse the heavenly sanctuary. He didn't return to the cleansing wasn't a fiery destruction of the earth after he had taken away all the Christians. The cleansing was of a heavenly sanctuary preparing for the arrival of the eventual arrival of the faithful. So they sort of explained away, away things. And that's been the same, you know, a number of years ago with Family Radio in the United States, there was the big billboard campaign picking one date of Christ's return. And, you know, that ended, and there was lots of embarrassment and that sort of thing. But again, you sort of rethink what you're going to do and such. And some people make the caveat that I'm not predicting the day or the hour, I'm just predicting the year.
We have scripture, and we use scripture to understand how to live in the present, right, in the world God's put us in. And with people who are really obsessed with end times, and not all dispensationalists are absolutely as obsessed with end times, but when you're obsessed with end times, the scripture, the news, becomes a way of interpreting scripture, not the other way around, right? And that's a point we make at the very end of the book, that you use the bible to help you understand the world in which you live in and how to how to live in it. Not, you don't take the news to help you interpret, interpret the Bible. But if you are doing that and you're the news is kind of primary, there's always some shiny new object and some, you can be very forgiving of yourself for having gotten something wrong because you didn't have this other piece of information.
So back during the first Gulf War, you know, for the longest time, before that, Babylon, you know, the great prostitute, Babylon, in the book of Revelation, was seen as, you know, some variation of the Catholic Church, or a apostate Christendom, or something like that, and associated with Rome. And then as the first Gulf War is heating up, some interpreters, Charles Dyer, I think was one says maybe it's Babylon after all, and this is Saddam Hussein, right? So you think, Oh, we didn't see this coming, but this helps us understand anew what John was talking about in Revelation, right? And so there's always something new that comes along. And so it's one of the reasons why, you know, you can't keep up on top of the latest thing, because there's always a new preacher, there's always a new take, there's always a new headline and such. So you want to understand how the system itself works, and the basics of where it goes awry. And the basic thing is, you know, it had to have made sense to the original audience. First and foremost, that's who God gave this material to. And if we're the only people that can understand it, then it's a sick joke on the people that first received it. And so that's the place that I always tend to start.
[John Borthwick]
For this week's unpaid commercial break, here's Dr. Irwin in his own words, encouraging you to consider purchasing what might seem on theme today,
[Brian Irwin]
The year is 1806, and the good people of Leeds, England are lined up outside the door of this woman, Mary Bateman. Recently arrived from York, where she was wanted for theft, Mary has established herself as a fortune teller and a purveyor of spells and potions. A career choice that has some people whispering that Mary is a witch. Today, however, the townsfolk are lined up coin in hand to see Mary's chicken. Mary's chicken is no ordinary hen, but the renowned prophet hen of Leeds, a bird that has been laying eggs with messages about the end of the world. For a while, Mary's customers are amazed. A local doctor, however, is more skeptical. A whiff of the vinegar that Mary has used to etch her message. Is on the eggs, and the fact that the word Christ is misspelled convinces the good doctor that Mary herself is the source of the messages. And so the jig is up. Curious about the end of the world, but have no access to a chicken. Try this instead, After Dispensationalism: Reading the Bible for the End of the World. New from Lexham Press.
[John Borthwick]
And now let's listen in on the book launch hosted by Knox College on May 2024. It featured some words from our principal, the Reverend Dr Ernest Van Eck. Dr Brian Irwin, of course, says a few words the author of the book, and then some thoughts also from the Reverend Dr Dan Scott, who was kind of the MC for the day.
[Ernest van Eck]
Then it's, then it's my, my privilege, to introduce Professor Brian urban to you this morning. I'm just going to say a few things about his education, academic career, and his publications and so forth. He graduated in Near Eastern Studies and Political Science, University in Toronto for the BA 1984, in 87 MA at Jerusalem University College, a Master's in the 1991 at Wycliffe, and a PhD in 1999 at St Mike's. His academic career, apart from being Adjunct and Assistant, really started when he was appointed as Adjunct professor of Biblical Studies at Tyndale and concurrently at Knox, Old Testament studies in 2004, and then he was appointed as Assistant Professor at Knox, Old Testament and Hebrew Studies in 2005, and he was promoted to Associate Professor in 2011, and this year he will be at Knox for 20 years. What an achievement, he says, foci his biblical narrative, apocalyptic, and the Book of Amos. He has published this book and one edited book, seven art articles in Academic Journals, peer reviewed, three chapters in multi-author volumes, 13 dictionary entries and 14 book reviews. And he's currently working on a commentary on Joel and Amos for the Apollos Old Testament commentary series. Google Scholar data, for me, this is always important. 148 eight citations since 2002, 2000 sorry, it's got an H index of eight and it index of five.
And before I hand over to you, Brian, let me cite a few accolades about on this book from your peers. It's a refreshing book. It is scholarly but accessible. It's a gentle antidote to the sensationalist, fear mongering eschatology of recent decades. It provides a historical and biblical foundation for a more nuanced understanding of contemporary apocalypticism. The book is for you, whether you either have thought of about the end times or whether you never pronounce the word dispensationalism before. Even difficult for me. This book is such a welcome addition to Christian eschatology, showing us how to read the prophetic passages of scripture in a way that is sound, sane and hopeful.
[Brian Irwin]
Thank you very much, principal Van Eck, and welcome to today's celebration of my book with Tim Perry, After Dispensationalism: Reading the Bible for the End of the World. And I say celebration because the book arrived in stores just almost a year ago today, but that was after all of this. You know, the college life had ended for the summer, and we are such a busy place with lots to celebrate through the regular academic year that there wasn't space in the calendar in the fall or the winter, and so a little bit tardy, but I hope that for you it's worth the wait.
So let's just cut to the chase, right? You really have to buy this book and I'll give you three reasons why.
This is reason number one. Reason number one is it has a beautiful cover. So in this case, you can please ignore the adage you can't judge a book by its cover, because the cover is great, and you'll also find really great stuff inside.
Now reason number two comes in the form of two photographs taken at last year's Society of Biblical Literature Annual Meeting. Photo number one that you see here is an ordinary picture of the book at the publisher’s booth. The second was taken later in the conference and captures something after. Absolutely shocking. You know, it's a must read book on end times, if it's rapture ready, right?
And that takes us to reason number three. When this book was originally listed on Amazon.ca, and I am not lying, it weighed in at an ominous 666 grams. Now I went to Amazon recently, and it seems suspiciously that the book has slimmed down somewhat. And I didn't know what was going on there, but there seems to be no longer a connection between the book's weight and the Antichrist. So if that's an issue for you, rest assured.
But fiddling with names and numbers has a long history in end time speculation. So I wondered if there was another possible connection, and you'll see from the book's cover that my name is Brian P Irwin. Last week I went to the Internet and I found this chart on numerology on a website that seemed pretty legit, and so I did the calculations and calculated the numeric value of my name, and it came out as, wait for it, 70. Now, of course, 70, it's no coincidence that in Daniel, chapter nine, verse 24, 70 is the number of that corresponds to the entire program for the last days, as Daniel lays out, 70 weeks. 70 weeks so. But the thing is, I can hear somebody saying, my colleague, Christine, in particular, she's saying, but Brian, the Hebrew says 77, it's just the English that says 70 weeks. And I that's a reasonable, reasonable thing, but the P of my middle name stands for Paul, and when you calculate the numeric value of that and add it to 70, we get 77 just like you do in the Book of Daniel.
So given that the identity of the author is predicted in scripture, the question really becomes, do you really want to risk not buying this book? Thankfully, there is opportunity for you to do that later, but enough of that, we need to wrap up with how this book came to be and what it's about, and how I hope that it is going to help people.
So what got me thinking about this book? I grew up in a really wonderful independent Evangelical Church in Mississauga, and it had roots in the Plymouth Brethren movement, which was part that part of the church in which dispensationalism was born. And when I was a teenager, the most exciting Bible study I ever attended was one on the book of Revelation and how Lindsay's book The Late Great Planet Earth had recently been published, and I just devoured it. And it was a time of nuclear tension, and war in the Middle East and oil embargoes, and it seemed that this Hal Lindsey fellow really had his finger on things. And I remember trying to relate Hal Lindsey's insights to my high school history teacher, Mr. Cadman, by saying Mr. Cadman the locusts their helicopters. And he was a wonderfully patient and gracious and generous, generous man. His nickname for me after that day became Mr. Fundamentalist, but he was a wonderful, wonderful educator.
But what later as I started to actually read the book of Revelation on its own, without the benefit of Lindsay or other dispensational guides. I wasn't really sure that the locusts were helicopters. In fact, there was a lot that I thought, that I knew, that I couldn't find reflected in Scripture. Revelation didn't seem to be as exciting to me anymore. But I didn't know what to do with it, so I put it aside, and my dealing with what to do with these passages of scriptures in part, what led to this book.
Later when I attended seminary here at Toronto School of Theology, I encountered people who hadn't grown up in the dispensationalist milieu that I had been raised in. And over the years in seminary, I had a number of exchanges with ministers and but mostly with fellow theological students. And they would say, I've got this person in my church or in my congregation, and they're saying, oh, you've got to teach that Russia is on the move and China is threatening Israel, and there's going to be war in the Middle East, and the European Economic Community is going to do this. And I. And and they're just driving me crazy with all this stuff. And I just wish they would go away and just be quiet. And I would say, Well, what would you do with Revelation and Daniel? And typically, they would say, Well, I don't plan on preaching on either of those books ever. And I always thought, you know if you don't have something to put in its place, it's hard for you to criticize someone who can probably quote more scripture than you do, who's part of an act takes an active role in your congregation.
And that was the other reason I wanted to write this book, was to help people in that category understand dispensationalism in a way that helped them really understand what was the theological workings of that theological system, and what people who were in that movement really were like, and what they might be expected to be like in the church. So later, as a teacher, I created a course that became the genesis of the book that we're celebrating today.
Now it's important for me to mention that that book made it across the finish line in part due to the counsel and help of someone who's not able to be here today, the Reverend Dr Tim Perry. And so he is at a synod, Lutheran Synod, meeting somewhere at an undisclosed location in southern Manitoba. But he is a fine pastor and theologian and educator. And he proved himself to be a C.C. Carlson for a new age, if you get what that reference? Well, you can see here, right on there. C.C. Carlson, right there.
Well, what will you find in this book? So in three sections, the book seeks to explain dispensationalism and its end time story and point to a better way of understanding the biblical books that dispensationalism uses. And the first section of the book is the world of end times teaching. This starts with an overview of end times speculation from the first century onwards. And the rest of the section is sort of a field guide for people unfamiliar with dispensationalism, what is it? Who are its major proponents, and what's the picture that it paints of end times? And that first section ends with an overview of the kind of behavior in the church and the world that one might expect to see as people live out those dispensational beliefs. And so for those inside and outside of dispensationalism, this section will explain how it reaches the dispensationalism reaches the view of end times that it does, and it's also for non-dispensationalisms, who might, in their minds, have a caricature when thinking about dispensationalists and what they think or wish to do in the world.
The second part of the book is the world of prophecy and apocalyptic. And this section deals with a key interpretive misstep that classic dispensationalism, I think, makes with regard to end times, and that's namely the failure to differentiate between apocalyptic and prophecy. It sees them as one thing, prophecy. And when you when you go through and look at apocalyptic texts in the Bible, thinking they're prophetic, then you get mistaken results. In short, dispensationalism tends to see prophecy as being all about long term prediction relative to our future, and in reality, most of the time, prophecy was about near term prediction that affected the audience that the prophet was immediately addressing it was relevant to them.
And so when I looked at books that critiqued dispensationalism, what frustrated me was that they were heavy on critique and often nasty. And they were very light on constructive next steps. And that resulted in the third section of the book, the meaning of biblical apocalyptic. And this is where we actually end the book, by digging into Ezekiel, Daniel, Revelation books that are the main source for dispensational teaching on the end of the world. And we look at the setting of the audience that first received each book, along with how each book is understood within dispensationalism.
And most of the attention here is on the shape and the meaning of these books, followed by some takeaways about what they meet. Might mean for the church today, and so the book ends with a focus on reading the final form of Scripture, because this is ultimately what matters most, and this is what I think is most helpful.
Now, just to wrap up, what do I hope the book is going to do so throughout the writing of this book, I tried to keep in mind that on end times and other issues where I've changed my mind, I've done so as the result of a long process of rumination, and not through an epiphany. My dad said, you know, change is a process, not an event, you can't expect someone to magically, whether it's in the church or the classroom, change their perspective just because I've said something or you've said something. You have to allow for time for people to to think through things. And knowing this is why we chose to avoid the uncharitable tone, I think that characterizes a lot of books on this subject. When it comes to critiquing dispensationalism.
I wanted this book to be constructive, which is why it ends with a plain study of Scripture and 12 or 13 takeaways or theses at the end of the book. And as I wrote the book, an audience member that I had in mind was my mother, and she was a gracious woman. She was an earnest and devout teacher, student and teacher of scripture, and she was always measured and gracious in her criticism. And I was pleased to see that those people who endorsed the book or provided reviews of it picked up on graciousness as its defining tone. So thank you for being here. I hope this book is a help to the church, and I hope it's a help to each of you. Thanks for being here today to celebrate with us.
[Daniel Scott]
Principal van Eck, thank you for the invitation. Brian, it's an honor to say a few words about your book. The third reason why you should buy it is the title After Dispensationalism, and as you described, working through these things, what do you do after dispensationalism, and how do we read the Bible for the end of the world?
Brian's fine book, gracious book, is dedicated to his parents, Paul and Eunice, Irwin and his wife, Elaine. I've never met your parents, and I only met you in person just recently, but I spoke with a gentleman that says that he conducted both of your parents’ funerals. I don't have any collaborating evidence that that was true, but he said that I did both of your parents’ funerals, and they were fine, fine individuals. And I believe they were. Your dad, a medical doctor, correct and circulating in brethren circles, a number of chapels throughout Ontario, Camp Mineohy, and your mom as well. You and I share some of the same kinds of backgrounds. I'm not from the Plymouth Brethren background, but I did have to go to afternoon Sunday School at a Brethren Church. Which was okay, because some of my hockey friends also went to the afternoon Sunday school. And if you memorized scripture, you got chocolate bars. And I thought this is way better than the morning church I go to where you didn't get chocolate bars.
I've never met Elaine either, but I'm guessing that you're over there with the camera. Nice to meet you. My mother saved up to purchase a Schofield Reference Bible. Publication incidentally, that if you're not aware that saved Oxford University Press from bankruptcy after the first war. Sold probably 20 million copies, almost instantaneously, mostly in the United States. But my mom purchased this when she was 16 years of age as a student just not far from here at Jarvis Collegiate, upon the recommendation of her Anglican Deaconess, who was part of her home parish.
My father had charts and drawings outlining the dispensations he grew up in a United Church in Port Coburn, Ontario, not far from where your mom grew up in St. Catharines. Indeed, your parents were married at Prudhommes Landing. Right? Yes, a lot of time spent at Prudhommes Landing, in my family as well. And so these charts and these graphs, my dad tried to explain them to me, and I never quite got into it in the way that he did.
My wife heard Hal Lindsey, The Late Great Planet Earth author, I didn't notice that there was a ghost writer, in C.C. Carlson that you point out in the book. But my wife heard him speak here in the city of Toronto, at the People's Church when she was a teenager. Across the campus of University of Toronto, at Knox church on Spadina is a room named after A.B. Simpson. He was a popular end times conference preacher. He was former a former Minister of that church, and according to a paper by a staff member and a former minister, the father of the current minister, Alex MacLeod, Don McLeod, in a paper, wrote that Winchester, A.B. Winchester was instrumental in the founding of Dallas Theological Seminary, which is a dispensationalist bastion. The Canadian painter and Canadian author, novelist Michael O'Brien, who's connected to a Catholic institution called Our Lady Seat of Wisdom Academy up in Barrie’s Bay, Ontario, has a number of popular novels that are kind of like a Catholic version of the Left Behind series. And that Left Behind series, I think the first book was published in 96 and, seven books sold about $60 million worth in profits and made into three movies, the last of which starred Nicolas Cage. But who knew that there was a Catholic version of dispensationalism? I didn't, except for, as you mentioned him in your acknowledgements and your thanks at the beginning, the Reverend, Dr Stanley Walters, your former teacher, predecessor in your role here at Knox College, my teacher. I loved Stan Walters. And a colleague of mine when I invited him, I'm sorry to have stolen him away from Knox, but he joined the faculty at Tyndale University in his retirement, but he was the one who first brought to my attention this whole idea of a Catholic stream of dispensationalism. And so indeed, as a contemporary religious movement, that's the politically correct term for cults, as a contemporary religious movement, dispensationalism has attracted Anglicans, Catholics, Evangelicals, Presbyterians and other faithful followers of Christ. But not all from those communities, of course. But as some would say, particularly in the United States, it's just part of the air that they breathe when you cross over into the border, that dispensationalist theology has infiltrated so much of the life. And most admittedly, within those denominational streams would fall into the two categories that Brian helpfully articulates - the evangelical and fundamentalist wings of those denominations, and his second chapter points it out. Page 35 says as a theological late comer and outsider, dispensationalism is practiced by many evangelicals and fundamentalism, but it's never been universal among them, which I think is right.
I was enculturated into the Christian world through a dispensationalist lens. And I've been intuitively, I think, been trying to work out what it means to be a follower of Christ after dispensationalism. This book beautifully, graciously, provides a great roadmap for that. It carefully explains with charts and graphs, It couldn't be dispensationalism without that, the main tenants of the movement, 666, 70, weeks. 77. Armageddon, all of those important things. And it gently, and Brian, you are right, that the reviewers have said, it's gracious. It gently points out the flaws in many of the dispensationalist assumptions and interpretations, and offers a very careful, readable guide as to how to read apocalyptic literature and prophetic literature. And gives specific examples from Ezekiel, Daniel and Revelation.
This was one of the questions I have after dispensationalism, not just in the book, but how do we live after dispensationalism is how do we capture some of the commitment of that movement to things like evangelism and mission that Brian articulates on pages 104 and 105. Huge commitments to evangelism and mission. Dwight L Moody connected with C.I. Schofield, the Plymouth Brethren, and as Brian articulates, small denomination to be sure, but the amount of dollars spent on mission exceeded, and the number of missionaries, grossly exceeded the Presbyterian Church USA in the much larger denomination.
And so and I have to do a nod to Tim Perry, how do we, after dispensationalism, make a radical difference? Tim Perry's first book, his PhD dissertation was radical difference defense of Heinrich Kramer's theology of mission. And I think part of the answer, how do we do mission, evangelism after dispensationalism? Certainly, it's correcting some of our wrongs and our mistakes. And I can borrow a title from your former colleague, mission is penance, and we have to admit we made mistakes in our mission, sure, but we still have to do the mission of Christ Church. And so part of the answer of how is in the prayer that you quote Brian for hearing the Holy Scripture. It's on Roman numeral 13 in the beginning of the book. It says, in part, that we may embrace and ever hold fast the blessed hope of everlasting life, which is given to us in Christ, Jesus, our Savior. Everlasting hope, audacious, everlasting hope, to quote a former president in the states.
And so, much of dispensationalism is built on fear. Life was filled with guns and wars and everyone was trampled on the floor. I wish we'd all been ready, as Larry Norman used to sing, right? Fear, fear, fear. But we have an audacious, blessed Hope, and that hope. I think, is the way we might move forward after dispensationalism. Brian and Tim, you've done a great gift to the church. And so thank you.
[John Borthwick]
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