Interview with Rachel Kennedy, Ministry Forum Intern and MDiv Student
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Interview with Rachel Kennedy, Ministry Forum Intern and MDiv student
Summary:
In this episode of the Ministry Forum Podcast, John chats with Rachel Kennedy, a Ministry Forum Intern and M.Div. student at Knox College. Rachel shares her journey into ministry, from her start as a French teacher to answering an unexpected yet compelling call to seminary. The conversation digs into Rachel’s passion for creating safe spaces for young people to explore faith authentically. She opens up about her experiences with different church cultures and how Knox has helped her find a theological home that values questioning and deep exploration. They also touch on how the church’s current challenges are an opportunity for renewal, inviting leaders to be more intentional and responsive to the real needs of their communities.
Quotables:
…it was kind of my whole life was set up to be a teacher. I have teachers in my family, principals in my family, and so teaching was kind of always something that I thought I would do, which is why I really connect well with the teaching elder aspect of a minister in the Presbyterian Church, because teaching is kind of my whole thing, but it's just maybe in a different, different classroom. - Rachel Kennedy
I was thinking back on a book that I read in my Reformed theology course with Dr John Vissers, Faith Seeking Understanding by Dan Migliore, and it kind of really helped me think about my call, and not only just my call, but my faith as well. And Dr Vissers in that class, he shared, you know, that we really should have a faith that's flexible, not one that isn't on a strong foundation, but a faith that's flexible so that when we come up against tension, our faith doesn't shatter, but it's able to bend and to think and to move through different conversations and theological debate. And so that's kind of changed my whole outlook on a lot of theology for the better… - Rachel Kennedy
…in terms of the state of the church today, I think it's a beautiful, scary and necessary place that we need to be. - Rachel Kennedy
Additional Resources:
Faith Seeking Understanding: An Introduction to Christian Theology by Daniel L. Migliore
Being A Church in a Liminal Time by Jeffrey D. Jones
About Rachel Kennedy-Proctor | Ba., BEd, Master of Divinity Student
My name is Rachel Kennedy-Proctor, and I am heading into my third and final year as an MDiv student at Knox College. I am eager to search for a call in the coming year for congregational ministry and am looking forward to the year ahead with Ministry Forum! I have a background in Teacher Education and spent a short time teaching grades 4-10 core French but found that I couldn't ignore God's call any longer (the guy is quite persistent!) I have spent many years (almost all of them) involved in ministry at my home church and in the community. I have a passion for Children and Youth and creating spaces where they feel valued, supported, and loved to be themselves. The future of the Church is changing as we navigate this new world, and I am honoured and privileged that God has called me at such a time as this. Looking forward to being part of the Ministry Forum Community!
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Transcript
[Introduction]
Welcome. Welcome to the Ministry Forum Podcast coming to you from the Center for Lifelong Learning at Knox College, where we connect, encourage and resource ministry leaders all across Canada as they seek to thrive in their passion to share the gospel. I am your host, the Reverend John Borthwick, Director of the Center and curator of all that is ministryforum.ca. I absolutely love that I get to do what I get to do, and most of all that, I get to share it all with all of you. So thanks for taking the time out of your day to give us a listen. Whether you're a seasoned ministry leader or just beginning your journey, this podcast is made with you in mind,
[John Borthwick]
Welcome. We're experimenting with something a little new for us. Today. It's our first ever get ready.
[pause]
[drumroll sound effect]
Riverside FM podcast recording, and I'm joined with our test subject, Rachel Kennedy, one of our Ministry Forum Interns and Knox College Master of Divinity students, just to try this little bit of technology out. And not that you're all deeply interested in all sorts of technology stuff, and I'm certainly no expert whatsoever. But as I understand it, at its most basic, riverside.fm gives us the opportunity to record on our own local devices and uploads that recording to a cloud. Huh? Have I lost you already? Probably. What does that mean? And how is this different from a zoom recording, for example? Well, if you've been a faithful listener to the Ministry Forum Podcast, and we hope you are or are about to become one today. You may have listened to a couple of our earlier episodes that included one with Grace Kim, another one with Sarah Travis, where we recorded on Zoom, and we had to offer that disclaimer of we're really sorry, but there could be bits and pieces that get garbled or go silent or lag, hmm, and so riverside.fm should be a game changer for us, and as lifelong learners, we are learning more and more each day, and I'm grateful to have you the Ministry Forum Podcast audience, along for this amazing journey.
[applause sound effect]
All right, so let's dive into our conversation today with Rachel Kennedy. Welcome Rachel, hi.
[Rachel Kennedy]
Hi, thank you for having me today.
[John Borthwick]
It's great to have you join us love you excellent, excellent. Well, I'd like to start where I often do, and I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about yourself in the way that you would like to share your own introduction. I mean, I could say a whole bunch of words about you, but it's best if it comes from you, I think, carry on.
[Rachel Kennedy]
Well, okay, great. Well, yes, my name is Rachel Kennedy. Sometimes I say Rachel Kennedy-Proctor, because I'm still debating what to do with my last name. I just got married in the summer of 2023 so I really don't know how I feel about changing my last name, and so I'm hyphenating for right now. So, you can call me Rachel Kennedy, or Rachel Kennedy Proctor, or just Rachel. That's also fine too.
Along with my work at Ministry Forum, I also work as a youth leader at Knox Oakville, and that's been really fun to do alongside going through seminary, because I get to try out, you know, all the material and different curriculum that we're learning in seminary, and I get to try it out on them, and so I often ask them a lot of the big questions that we wrestle with at school. And yeah, it's been giving me a really cool, nuanced perspective on things. Gives a more of a Gen Z perspective, which is really cool. I'm also a huge Taylor Swift Fan. I feel like that's a big part of who I am currently trying to figure out how to go to the Eras Tour, and that's been occupying a large part of my brain, but as of right now, no luck. I also love reality TV, unfortunately, but I love Love Is Blind and Selling Sunset. I don't really know what that says about me, but I find it just so fascinating to watch. And I'm also an Enneagram nine, if that means anything to anyone. For those who might not know, Enneagram - nine is the peacemaker, and so sometimes also called a people pleaser unfortunately, but that's a unhealthy, unhealthy nine. So, yeah, that's just a little bit about me. I'm also, yeah, a Knox MDiv student, and I'm in my third and final year of the program, so excited to hopefully search for a call come February.
[John Borthwick]
That's amazing, yeah, because they'll, they'll release you on the church in February the first I find that so fascinating. We use that language. You are released.
[Rachel Kennedy]
You are released to the church. I know it's gonna be great.
[John Borthwick]
It's gonna be amazing. Well, I hope that you find the Taytay tickets that will be an important, I guess, moment in your life. Are you willing to travel? Maybe you could go on the eras tour or somewhere else.
[Rachel Kennedy]
I'm willing to go and do anything. If anyone has any other extra tickets who might be listening, please send them my way. We can chat.
[John Borthwick]
Yeah, I mean, one time I looked up a concert, I'm a this might this is a new disclosure to the Ministry Forum audience, I listened to a lot of trance music.
[Rachel Kennedy]
Trance?
[John Borthwick]
Yeah, DJs, trance, oh yeah, yeah. That's how I work, like the chill stuff,
[Rachel Kennedy]
Yes, love that low fly beats
[John Borthwick]
Yeah, It helps me to work. And so I looked up online where a certain DJ that I appreciated was going to be and apparently, if I had enough to fly to Norway, I could have gone there. And it would have been cheaper than seeing them in Toronto. Like with the flight, it would have been cheaper. It's just a funny thing, yeah.
And fascinating about your Enneagram work, I hope to actually have a conversation with somebody about Enneagram as a part of the Ministry Forum Podcast, because it's certainly been something that has brought some good insights.
[Rachel Kennedy]
Yeah, yeah, it's a cool thing.
[John Borthwick]
I'm actually an eight
[Rachel Kennedy]
That tells makes a lot of sense.
[John Borthwick]
Ouch, and I appreciate and, and, and own it, because I am an eight.
[Rachel Kennedy]
For sure, for the best.
[John Borthwick]
Yeah, well, we think, we think we are. I think we're pretty great. With a nine wing. I've got a bit of a nine-wing occasion. So we'll save that for another podcast. All the conversation, but it does sound it is a good thing to sort of dabble in and learn a bit about. It can be a helpful tool not to weaponize and not to use exclusively to understand humanity, but it gives us another insight into humanity.
[Rachel Kennedy]
Yes
[John Borthwick]
So Rachel, how did like, how did this happen? What brought you to Knox College? What were you doing? Were you doing something before Knox College? Like, why did you end up with us in this place?
[Rachel Kennedy]
Yeah, well, before Knox College, I was actually going through Teachers College at the time, and so I did my undergrad at Brock University. That's where I met my closest friends that have been honestly incredible supporters of my journey at Knox. Most of them don't come from a church background, but have just been incredible to have their support and talk about big, big life things with them. So that's been awesome. But yeah, at Brock, I did a concurrent education program, so I was able to receive two degrees and my O.C.T. certificate, so I have a degree in education and a Bachelor of Arts degree in French, and yeah, so my whole education was kind of setting me up to be a French teacher. And so I went through Teachers College, and it was kind of through my experience there, which, you know, was all online at the height of the pandemic.
Yeah, I kind of felt like I was going through this existential crisis. I don't know if that was just because everything was online or what was going on, but I just had this incredible nagging feeling of, should I go into ministry? Should I enter seminary? Something. It was something that I never had thought about or considered before doing, and so, yeah, kind of felt like my whole future was being put on pause, or the future that I thought I was entering into of teaching was being turned upside down a little bit as it wasn't something that I really considered pursuing as a career, and so during this time as well, when I was in teachers college, I was also volunteering with a group called Young Life, and it's a non profit organization that works in the lives of teens to share the gospel in ways that make sense to them and we work through high schools and form relationships with teens and talk about big questions in life with them. It doesn't, you know maybe how I'm describing, it sounds a little creepy, but I swear it's not creepy. It's very above board. And so it was through my work with Young Life where I was kind of fully immersed in that ministry life. Um, while also finishing my teaching degree, and it felt just like this collide of worlds where I really just needed to apply to Knox College and just feed that nagging feeling, I guess. Yeah,
[John Borthwick]
So a teaching degree, yes, in French, that's yes, a niche market.
[Rachel Kennedy]
It is a very niche market
[John Borthwick]
Much desired
[Rachel Kennedy]
Yes, it wwas a pretty good setup that I had. I kind of could have just walked into a job, really, because French teachers are just so needed. And so I had, you know, prospects lined up, interviews lined up, and people telling me in my ear that I'm going to ruin my chances of going back to teaching. But I just felt like I couldn't, yeah. I couldn't ignore the feeling of the call, which, you know, you got to answer.
[John Borthwick]
I guess so, yeah, as much as we try to run away from it, and I'm assuming you're bilingual?
[Rachel Kennedy]
I am Yes.
[John Borthwick]
Is that foolish to say? you're bilingual?
[Rachel Kennedy]
No not foolish, well maybe to a francophone it would be foolish to call me bilingual, but, I was in Quebec City the other weekend, and I was able to use all my French for the first time in a really long time. So that was awesome, and it all came back to me. So I'll say that I am bilingual.
[John Borthwick]
Wonderful, wonderful. Yeah, so you've talked a little bit about this nagging call that you had to answer. How would you articulate that your call to ministry? Is it something that's come in and out of your life, something that you had way long ago, and then it's come back? Or it's simply as you were studying French to teach to teach children in the future? Somehow, maybe en francais le Dieu spoke to you in some way?
[Rachel Kennedy]
Le Dieu did speak to me. Well, I kind of describe it as a really fast call. And what I mean by that is that it felt like to me, God was calling me out of nowhere. But when I you know, and Knox College has helped me do this and reflect on my whole life, I can see where there's a lot of moments where the outside call was super prevalent. So those saying you should go into ministry, or you would be really good at this thing in ministry. But I wasn't really matching that up with an inner call until I mentioned that journey through Teachers College, I it was kind of my whole life was set up to be a teacher. I have teachers in my family, principals in my family, and so teaching was kind of always something that I thought I would do, which is why I really connect well with the teaching elder aspect of a minister in the Presbyterian Church, because teaching is kind of my whole thing, but it's just maybe in a different, different classroom.
So yeah, we were at the height of the pandemic, as I said, and everything was online. I was teaching French to a grade five, six, split class online. It was amazing and awful, I'm sure, as you can imagine, and it was just it was really challenging to adapt to an online world. But, you know, here we are a few years later, and we can do it pretty seamlessly. But yeah, I began to think, like I have what this feels like a sudden nagging feeling to go into ministry. Maybe I should explore that. And so I did.
And so I talked to my minister, I talked to my parents, I asked my minister, you know, what was seminary like for you? And then we really were able to prayerfully discern together and using other resources and everything of “is this really what I what I'm being called to do”, and talking with my parents and my then boyfriend - now husband - at the time, and they all kind of said, yeah, we've been waiting for you to say that you're going into ministry. So that was a really big confirmation on my own call. My parents love to share the story of how they always knew I was going into ministry, but they were just waiting for me to finally figure it out, which I think is quite funny. And another thing that I think is a really big part of my call story is the other women that were in ministry at the time that I was seeing as well. I don't think, if there weren't women in ministry in my then circles, that I was a part of, I don't think I would have believed that I could also lead in the same way. So they're a big part of that call as well.
[John Borthwick]
That's amazing, yeah, I love that - seeing others doing the thing. Thinking and wondering if that could be you too. That's amazing, and I love how parents lay claim to many of the things. That's what parents do.
The couple things I found fascinating. I want to almost say… because the language you're using around call is interesting, and I've heard it in a couple of different iterations, having been around the college for just the past year and a bit.
I don't remember, and maybe I'm just old, but I don't remember when I - because we had to do the thing all the time, it became so rote where it's like, “tell us of your call to ministry in every single place” and we do it and we do it and we do it. But I don't remember ever hearing the nuance of the inner and outer call, and you specifically named that as an inner and outer I think that's amazing, like that people, because people often talk about them almost separately. If I'm remembering it in the way that I think I can remember it from the past, like I would have said, mine was an outer that was confirmed. The story I always told was it was confirmed when I sat in chapel in the first week of seminary at Knox College - that's when it was finally confirmed as an inner sense of, “yeah, I think you're in the right place” I think that's what God was telling me. I think you might be in the right place.
[Rachel Kennedy]
I think this is it, yeah.
[John Borthwick]
I think maybe too “let's just see how this works out”. But I feel like lots of folks either spoke of a very inner call, like they, themselves, always felt called, or they had an experience where they were called, in a, how would you say, perhaps in a more supernatural way, as it were, like they felt, they heard a voice, or they felt connected to something deeper than themselves, not another person. Or the alternative was the outer call, where, you know, people would recognize gifts in me and said, I should be a minister, and now I'm going to be a minister, I'm going to answer that call.
Do you want to say anything more about that inner and outer experience?
[Rachel Kennedy]
I think that was a new. I didn't really know that going into the whole call process either, and discerning the call. But there's this fancy document called, oh shoot. Now I'm forgetting the name the call to ministry, something like that. It's a PCC document that helps ministry candidates discern if they are called or not. And a big part of it is, is matching that outer and inner call. And so I was kind of really searching for that. And one of the reasons at the very beginning where I was questioning if I was called was because I didn't have this supernatural experience where, you know, I heard God say, go into ministry or do this thing. And I thought that was, like, a really needed experience to have to be able to confirm a call to ministry. And so I was like, I don't have this, you know, burning bush moment where God spoke to me in this incredible way. And it was kind of like this hum that was always there, maybe. And so exploring, exploring that was how I matched, you know, that inner first and outer call together.
[John Borthwick]
It’s really interesting, because I had the experience. So my call story was the minister that the male minister, who was my minister from 13 to 20 something, came to me when I was, I think I was 18 at the time, and he came to me, and I don't think he never had anybody had ever had this experience, because I was the only, really the only teenager in the church I was in. It was a very small church, and so the minister asked me, and I remember it being such a formal experience. It was like “John, there comes a time in every young man's life, where he might be invited to consider a call to ministry” and he said, I want you to go and consider that. And so I went and consider that, so you considered it. And then I came back to him a few weeks later and said, “Yep, I considered it. And I think, yeah, let's sign me up. Let's, let's go”. But then this is the interesting part, okay, with this individual - and no disrespect to him - I don't think anyone had ever come to him and said, “sign me up”. So maybe that's where he fumbled a bit, fumbled the ball a bit, which kind of disrupted my sense of call for a very long time. So what he responded with when I said, “giddy up, let's go”. I didn't say it that way, but, but essentially, he said, “Oh well, did God speak to you, John? And I was like. “Oh, what? No, I don't know. No, I don't think so. I don't know”. And so for him, and we had a bit of a talk, and it kind of like went, “Oh, okay, oh, I guess, I wasn't called then I guess this was all about me and not about God and blah, blah”. And he had a very, he had a very clear sense that a call should come as a supernatural experience from God, and so that disrupted me throughout my entire, yeah, my entire undergrad, I knew I went to university, did a BA in history, the people, the nice, dear older people in my church, all assumed I was going to be a minister, but I was pretty sure there's no there's no way. And I didn't want to be a teacher, but I was doing a Bachelor of Arts in History, so everyone in my class wanted to be a teacher, and I didn't know what I was going to be when I grew up. Yeah. And then I went on the working world for about a year and a bit, and then had my own sort of sense of discerning what should I do. And then my next step became, essentially, I came down to I knew I have to go back to school. What's it going to be? And then I describe my call as I've, for the sake of my parents, because my mom knew, since I was born, that she was giving me back to the church and to Jesus or something, because I was an only child, not meant to be, miracle baby, that whole stuff. She told me that story my whole lifelong, no great burden there, nd then I also had a dear older lady in the church that I was in as a teenager who, every single Sunday, if she was there and I was there, she would say, I know you're for the ministry. She was a diaconal minister in her day, a deaconess and married to a minister who had since passed, and so she was a widow. And just constantly, “I know you're for the ministry”. “I know you're for the ministry”. I'm like Anna, I am not for the ministry. you don't really know me.
So when it finally happened, that I came to a conclusion. I said to people, and this is even how I articulated my call. I stepped into the call to ministry, doing the Presbytery thing and everything else, assuming that someone would say no at some point, and doing it really kind of like for my parents. My parents thought this would be a good thing, so let me try it out, and again, it wasn't until that confirmation of that inner peace of sense sitting in Knox College chapel. I'm going, “I think this is where I'm supposed to be” and then not to say, because we're going to get to that question in a sec, not to say that call in my life hasn't been challenged every single day for 26 years or more, it's been part of that, but I said yes, and stepped in.
So yeah, I think it's really helpful to maybe our Ministry Forum audience to hear even how you might talk to somebody about a call to ministry, because what I also found fascinating in your story was all these people waiting on the sidelines until you figured it out. Couldn't one or two of them have said, anything? Hey Rachel, if you ever considered a call to ministry, we see this in you, and we think this would be great if you did this, but just sort of sitting back and going, she'll figure it out. She'll figure it out. I don't know, like, that's maybe that’s scary.
[Rachel Kennedy]
Maybe, maybe there was some people that I'm forgetting right now.
[John Borthwick]
You just ignored them, perhaps
[Rachel Kennedy]
Probably, yeah, or I go, all that sweet. You just think that because I'm the only young person in the church. Or, you know, you only think that because I am the person who volunteers to do XYZ, kind of, yeah, kind of, just ignoring them. But really, I think that was God using other people to say, like, can you figure it out already?
[John Borthwick]
And maybe that’s the piece that you're, you sort of said that Knox College has helped you discern that. And I think that's part of, I think that's part of what a seminary can help you do, sort of see all those pieces and put it all into place and stuff.
[Rachel Kennedy]
Yes,totally. Oh yeah, absolutely.
[John Borthwick]
So your call is still fairly fresh as it were. How has it been reinforced or challenged or changed or shaped through your experience at Knox College? Maybe, let's go a little deeper on that
[Rachel Kennedy]
Yeah. I mean, in so many ways I feel like Knox College has, as I mentioned, helped me reflect on the call, helped me kind of dissect my call a little bit. It's challenged it and shaped it in really beautiful ways. I was thinking back on a book that I read in my Reformed theology course with Dr John Vissers, Faith Seeking Understanding by Dan Migliore, and it kind of really helped me think about my call, and not only just my call, but my faith as well. And Dr Vissers in that class, he shared, you know, that we really should have a faith that's flexible, not one that isn't on a strong foundation, but a faith that's flexible so that when we come up against tension, our faith doesn't shatter, but it's able to bend and to think and to move through different conversations and theological debate. And so that's kind of changed my whole outlook on a lot of theology for the better, I think, and also has helped me really, really think about this call and reflect on different moments in time when people were definitely speaking to me to say, go into ministry, but I was just, you know, choosing not to listen to them, or choosing to ignore them. Or the attractiveness of being a French teacher and having a really steady job was really attractive, But it's just shaped it in so many ways, I think, in terms of it challenging, a little bit about myself in high school and university, I was born and raised Presbyterian, but in high school and university, I went to a Pentecostal church. It was a lot of my friend, my church friends were attending the Pentecostal church, and so we would all go together to a young adult program. And then eventually I was kind of fully immersed in that world, and I really tried to fit in there. I really did, and I'm not meaning to dig, or it's at no cost to the Pentecostal church, but I just never felt like I could be myself. It felt like my theology or my questions or doubts weren't really encouraged. And so it always felt like, you know, whatever the preacher said was the truth, and the truth couldn't be questioned. And that just never really sat right with me. And so I constantly felt like I was being asked to go back in this small box that, you know, only women were allowed to exist in and so, yeah, when I was really feeling called to ministry, I was still kind of wrapped up in that Pentecostal world. And, you know, I It was strange to experience a call as a woman in the Pentecostal world. I was, you know, in a committed relationship with Eric at the time, and I had other people in that space share just how it's weird and you're a woman and isn't maybe, are you intercepting a call that is actually meant for Eric and things like that. And so, you know, they didn't say it in those exact words, but that was kind of the sentiment. And so coming to Knox actually really felt like a breath of fresh air. It felt like I was able to finally put some language and research behind things that I already believed and lived out, I think, but didn't really know how to communicate in words, and so it was, it was challenging to kind of separate some of some of the learnings that I had learned in the Pentecostal world that kind of didn't really fit me anymore, but really helpful in terms of, yeah, being confident in my faith and my call to ministry gave me a space to explore that and reflect on that with my other colleagues at Knox as well. So, yeah,
[John Borthwick]
Yes, like a safe space to land
[Rachel Kennedy]
Yes, a safe space to land, yeah.
[John Borthwick]
From a challenging, sometimes challenging experience with other folks speaking into your call, but speaking into it in a way that is questioning it in some ways.
[Rachel Kennedy]
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and no day get at I'm that's just my own personal experience in that Pentecostal world. I know that there's many others who have a different experience, but
[John Borthwick]
For sure, yeah, well, and I also really appreciated the flexibility piece, because I think about, I don't remember it being said in the very same way. But certainly the messaging was, was out there in the first few weeks of being at Knox College, being in a seminary for the very first time, a long, long time ago, oh gosh, a long, long time ago. But just that sort of sense that the professors and principals and folks like that, I think, saw part of their role as people having their first dabblings in a seminary was to kind of disrupt, kind of reinforce a notion of, you know, encouraging people to open their minds, to be to experience things that they may have not heard or understood before. But I'm but I'm very much aware that our principal, Principal, Ernest Van Eck, the first week of classes, or maybe the orientation day, I remember he used a phrase was something along the lines of “expect to be challenged here”. I think that's helpful as people think about, you know, what would be being in a seminary? Be like, expect to be challenged. You're gonna challenge. Encounter stuff that's, different. Perhaps I love the I love the flexibility piece I heard another, another speaker I listened to years and years ago that I really appreciated how they put it together was kind of like how we build our theology, how we build the way we talk about God could either be a brick wall, or it could be or it could be a trampoline. And if you, if you build it as a brick wall, if someone comes along and takes out one of your bricks and another brick. It's possible the whole wall will come tumbling down. But if it's, if you're on a trampoline, it's sort of like, okay, something new happened. Okay, we're gonna bounce maybe a bit differently, or that's gonna be a bit disruptive, but we're, we're gonna get back into the rhythm and see how that integrates into how we think about God, or how we think about our faith or theology, or whatever that might be Really interesting.
[Rachel Kennedy]
Yeah, that’s a great analogy to think about. I had a couple of ministers share some advice before I went into ministry, and they would say, your first year they take you all apart. The second year they dissect you, and the third year they try to stitch you back together. So I don't know where I am in that, in that analogy, but yeah, you definitely will be challenged. But I think it allows you to think about the world and faith and God and relationships and new ways that maybe you haven't before. And so that's been really just a beautiful part about going through seminary.
[John Borthwick]
Yeah, and I think what you're speaking into there that's interesting, the kind of advice you might get if you're going to be going into seminary. I think what's fascinating, like, everybody has a different experience of that.
So my experience was actually, I didn't, I didn't know much of anything. My first sermon that I did before long before I went to Knox like probably the minister, the same minister invited me to do a sermon, and there was a graduate of Knox College who didn't pursue ministry, who was in the congregation, and he came to me later, and it was like a long time ago. He'd maybe 20 years out from his graduation or something, had went there, and things didn't work out for him to be a minister. But anyways, I remember him coming up to me afterwards, after I did my sermon. He said, Well, you've preached your first heresy. I was like, What? What? What do you mean? He's like, stop. He's like, Yeah, what you just preached there was one of the first heresies. And basically what I had done in my simplicity, as a 16/17, year old person with basic knowledge of stuff, I preached a sermon that was basically saying the Old Testament God was was an angry, judgy, violent God, and the New Testament God is Jesus, and he's super nice. Which is, which is one of the first heresies. Which is one of the first heresies? I was a Marcian preacher.
So anyways, my experience of Knox College was not the, you know, they break you and they shape you and they put you back together. Mine was everything was new to me. I didn't know any of this stuff, and so, yeah, it was all brand new, and I was just sort of taking it in totally, whereas I did find and part of me what disrupted my journey in the call process, even within the college process and with the courts of the church, guidance, conference, certification, interviews, was those challenges were really about me constantly saying, “look, everyone that's around me have been in the church like either in Camping Ministry forever or our generational minister types. And I'm fresh, I don't know nothing”. I started really connecting to a church when I was 13. Sure, my parents were lifelong Presbyterians, but there wasn't a lot of that happening in the household. So totally, this is kind of all new to me. I'm still, on a learning journey. So, yeah, I think everybody experiences that process differently, but there’s always been this specter of, like, oh, you go to a seminary, especially like a Knox College, and they'll destroy your faith, destroy you. Not sure that's the case. Again, be open. Be curious, be ready to be challenged, and then see how that works.
[Rachel Kennedy]
And you don't have to abandon everything. Also, you can take, you know, some things I think I definitely needed to unlearn or relearn. But you don't have to abandon everything. I think if you had to abandon everything, it'd be quite scary coming to a place like this.
[John Borthwick]
And I wonder if part of our culture today, maybe I'll play on this generational thing that you and I are having at this moment. But in the previous generation, there might have been an assumption that people, young people in the church, or people in the church in general, just had a stronger foundation, maybe sort of notion. And so the expectation was they knew stuff. They knew the Bible, they knew the things. Not 100% sure actually, that's true, but, but that was the assumption, yeah. And then today, maybe not as much, but, but one of the differences in today, which I think it's just around the medium of how it's delivered, I think we were in the same reality in the past, but in today, it's like you can based on what you follow on social, what podcasts you listen to, you can, you can just constantly give yourself an echo chamber of all the things that you like and how you think. I think that reality existed 20 years ago, 50 years ago as well, but in today's world, there is that sort of echo chamber kind of mentality. And so, yeah, perhaps going to a seminary is going to expose you to things that you'd never heard of before. And there's sort of, I guess, an invitation to resilience, like, how are you going to start to form? There's a bit of formation that happens as you continue to discern your call, yeah, as to who am I and what do I stand for? What do I believe in? And sometimes we need to listen to voices, like I intentionally read books and listen to podcasts, occasionally, not a lot, but occasionally, just to give myself a voice that I've never heard of before, or a voice I really disagree with, to get a better understanding of, wow, okay, this person thinks this way, believes these things with strong conviction. I don't in the same way, but at least I now I understand a bit better. And it helps me to form, yeah, no, I'm gonna disagree on that. Or, yeah, no, I'm gonna hold fast to this. Or I could maybe understand a bit better where you're coming from.
[Rachel Kennedy]
Yeah, totally, it allows you to see that perspective, which, yeah, I think the the algorithm is great, because it shows you everything that you want to see right on your social media, like on Instagram or Twitter or through even podcasts. It'll suggest, Oh, you like this you must also like this one then, and that's awesome when you're looking for new content to absorb, but I think it for sure, especially what we're seeing right now, with a big election coming up in our with our siblings across the border, it divides like crazy, and it becomes your own social media pages, or whatever you follow is, is the only perspective that you're getting. And so it makes whatever, and not to get political, but it makes, you know, whatever party that you're looking at, or whatever thing that you're looking at, makes the other people sound, you know, crazy or insane, or, you know, like they don't know what they're talking about, and so it just, I think it's dangerous when it further divides. So it's important, like you're saying, to listen to things that maybe you don't agree with, to maybe either that strengthens your own, your own beliefs and your perspectives, but it also might have a window into, well, I am so convicted in this belief system, what makes this person so convicted in theirs? And that I think can bring us a lot closer together.
[John Borthwick]
Yeah, because when we think about a church and a congregational audience, there's typically a lot of diversity there. There's a lot of folks who believe different things. I used to joke that in the congregation I served for over 20 years, there were people who were atheists who would come every single Sunday, and there were people who were fundamentalists who would come every Sunday, and sometimes they sat together and would have coffee and chats. And I've always appreciated that about the Presbyterian Church in Canada that we have had a very diverse community of people that we serve. But it does put the minister in a sometimes a challenging position of, how do you speak about certain things? How do you totally talk about certain things? And certainly we've been facing that for some time in Presbyterian Church in Canada, around some issues, of course. So as you, as you reflect on your sense of call, and you think about the state of the church today, as you understand it, or as you reflect upon that in particular, any thoughts on that, like, just how did you get called into the church that's in the state it's in today? I don't know, however you want to describe that.
[Rachel Kennedy]
So the state of the church today, I don't know if I can answer how I found myself here, because I think I've, you know, with the call to be in a in a Presbyterian seminary, and because I feel at home in the Presbyterian Church. That's all part of it. But in terms of the state of the church today, I think it's a beautiful, scary and necessary place that we need to be. I don't actually, well, I can look at the, you know, the scary statistics that are out on our PCC website, and you know, the percentage of churches that are able to hire a full time minister, and that absolutely is, is scary, and it's different than what we're familiar with, but it actually, I think it's a beautiful time to be in because we're in a place that we can imagine, that we are allowed and offered a time to really think about what church is and how it can be, and what brings people back to church, week in and week out. Because really, the people that are either sitting beside you on a Sunday morning or you see them at a Bible study, or, you know, another church event, they don't have to be there. They choose to be there. You know, we don't live in a time where your status or your church attendance will get you other perks in society, right? Probably maybe the opposite. And so I think the people who are there actually want to be there. They're committed to being there. And so what is it about the church that they come to that makes them want to keep coming back? And I think that's a helpful question to think about when we're thinking about the future of the church. Because yes, I agree it is scary, it's different, but I think it's an opportunity to try new things, to maybe shed some of the old ways of doing things, lament that, to grieve it, but then to also get on board with a new thing that God's doing. And it's not going to be a quick fix, I think it's probably going to be a deep, transformational change that we're going through. And obviously, I think there needs to be time to lament and to grieve that, but it's also a space where we can really think about the possibilities of what church can be in the world and in our local communities, and yeah, just how we can, how we can really be, be the church. So does that answer that question?
[John Borthwick]
It's a great answer. I love it. Do you want to say those words again? That that opener? I loved, I loved how you phrased. You had like, three words.
[Rachel Kennedy]
Oh yes. I said, I think we are in a beautiful, scary and necessary time. I
[John Borthwick]
Yeah. I think we are. I think we are in that for sure. And
[Rachel Kennedy]
And I think, you know, a lot of the people who are there also say this. There's even in my own church context, you know, you have 20% of the people doing 100% of the work, and there's a lot of burnout, but I think that is a problem that's maybe staring us in the face, saying, “maybe we don't need to do everything that we've always done”. Maybe there's a chance for us to even though, you know, we love the bake sales and we love to do these different events and have fundraisers, and all of that is important work and good work, but for right now, maybe we need to reimagine what are the things that we really need to do and I kind of always frame that in terms of outreach, like, what is our local community really needing, if it's groceries, if it's housing costs, like, what can the church do to be a place to help people in that in that situation, and meet their needs? So, yeah, we might not have thought about church working and maybe some of the ways that it needs to, whether that's, you know, listening and reconciling with Indigenous folks. Maybe that's just sitting and listening to people who have been hurt by church and how we can move, how we can move forward with them in that healing journey. Yeah, there's, you know, I think there's, we're in a place where there's endless opportunities and possibilities to think about what church is.
[John Borthwick]
Yeah, that's great. Rachel, I think it's when we speak about one of the best lines, I think out there in the world around calling or vocational calling, like being called into doing something, is from a theologian named Frederick Buchner, and he talks about your calling, or our calling is where the world's deepest need meets your greatest passion. And so linking those two together is, and I think that can be discerned within a community as well. Like, what's the one thing we do really well as a people? What's the one thing we all could get behind? As opposed to trying to do all the things?
[Rachel Kennedy]
Yeah, totally.
[John Borthwick]
There's something powerfully meaningful about that, I think. And I think you're right. I'm hearing as I travel across the country and connect with ministry leaders. That's the thing that people are talking about more and more and more, which is a shift I think. If I think back to 20 years ago in ministry, it was always about, what are we adding on? What new program could we do? What new thing could we try? What new initiative should we be striking out and doing in the world. And now I'm hearing more and more and more of what, “what do we need to shed?” “what do we need to focus on?” “what are the essentials?” “what is the definition of what we're supposed to be doing?” and then “how do we do that really effectively with the people that God has given us to be in ministry with?”
[Rachel Kennedy]
For sure, totally, absolutely. I was just looking at my desk here to see if I have the book that also changed my world. But I can’t find it…
[John Borthwick]
At Ministry Forum. We love books!
[Rachel Kennedy]
Ah, here it is one that I had to read for class. It's called Being A Church in a Liminal Time, Remembering, Letting Go and Resurrecting. And it talks exactly about this conversation about, you know, there's what kind of congregation do you find yourself in? Are you in one that needs to let go? Are you in one that's remembering, or are you in one that is resurrecting and trying to do new things? But there can't be resurrection if there isn't death, and so we need to die to something and what is that thing? And so, yeah, it's a fantastic read, and I really, really loved it. So that's my recommendation. Love
[John Borthwick]
Love it. I love it. Yeah. I mean, going to seminary, you get to read all sorts of books. I mean, you're kind of forced to, then they'll grade you on your paper or whatever else you have to do.
[Rachel Kennedy]
Yes, it was a book report I had to do. But, um, but, yeah, that's, it's one of the great things. And, well, it sucks because you can't read everything when you're here. But you want to.
[John Borthwick]
You want to, you want to, well, hopefully it ignites again in the spirit of Ministry Forum. Hopefully it ignites a spirit of lifelong learning. That's what we're always hoping for.
So just for right now, I mean, in this moment, we are recording on October 30, 2024. What is Rachel Kennedy proctor at three o'clock in the afternoon, Eastern Standard Time, October 30, 2024... How is Rachel thinking that she might like to serve or contribute to the flourishing of the church or contributing to God's world at this time?
[Rachel Kennedy]
Wow, what a question. Just quickly?
[John Borthwick]
We got time, yeah. What do you think just for right now doesn't have to lock in. We're not, I mean, you know this is being recorded. Because we don't want to lock you in, because, you know, someday, months from now, or a couple of years from now, or whenever, someone's going to go to this recording and go, you said you were going to do this, and you didn't, so I'm not holding you to it, just today, in this moment. What are you thinking?
[Rachel Kennedy]
Oh gosh. Well, I do feel there's a deep, a deep call to congregational ministry, and I think I do have to honour that in whatever that looks like. And so come the time that I'm able to start applying to a call, I will that is my plan to do that, what congregational ministry looks like, though, is a very different question. And I am open to a congregation that wants to try new things, or that is already doing a new thing, and wants somebody to join in on that fun. But, yeah, I do also have a really big heart for youth. I think my experience working with youth in Young Life, and then also, as the youth leader at Knox Oakville, there's, it is just so hard to be a teenager right now. I'm sure you know, in other generations, they'll say that it was harder, but I really think it's so challenging, because people have access to you 24/7 and when you're in such a vulnerable time of life, when you're such a moldable time, where things that you see really affect you, and not that they don't, for every generation, but I think it's, it's probably pretty prevalent in a teenager's world? I think it's, it's just hard, and cyberbullying is a real thing, and you know, figuring out who you are and what your identity is and how do you fit in, and then adding all of the new ones that social media brings with it, I think it's, it's just really challenging. And so if I can create space where teenagers feel loved and valued and cared for and that they can take their mask off and just be who they are, then I will consider that I have added to the flourishing of God's world. And so, yeah, that'll be definitely a big part of my ministry as well, wherever I end up.
[John Borthwick]
That's beautiful, too. Yeah, hmm, I'm just trying to, I'm thinking, from your experience with hanging out with young people today, yeah, is there, is there some kind of perspective, or, as we sort of wrap up our conversation, is there, yeah, something that you would offer, from what you hear, what you get privileged to be bear witness to, from young people who, because I think it, it's like it's an anomaly, I often would say to older people, it's an anomaly for you as an older person, even to turn up every single Sunday at a church or participate in church related things, but for young people today, it's like double or triply so. Like I would assume for those poor kids who are being dragged to your youth group? No, no. Just kidding. I'm sure they want to be there. But for the young people you interact with, the questions they have, is there anything you would say into this conversation around the church today, young people's perspective? What would you want to share?
[Rachel Kennedy]
Well, that's, that's a great question. I think what they what they really want is to be heard. And I think in a church space, you know, maybe a majority is, yeah, let's have young people, but don't start voicing your opinion, or don't start changing things. But I think that's what they want. They want to be heard. They’re not going to show up to a church that isn't talking about real issues, that isn't talking about things that are affecting their world outside of church. If a church is so disconnected from the actual context and the people that they serve, youth aren't going to show up there, they're going to go to other spaces that will hear their voice, that will hear the voice and then actually do something about it, and who will talk about the big, hard questions in life.
A myth, I think, is that we live in a world that's isn't spiritual or isn't it doesn't have a connection to the divine, and they are absolutely spiritual, and they have a deep, a deep wanting to belong and connect. And I think we have a really amazing opportunity to invest in them as well. So if you have any youth in your congregation, invest in them! Take them out to coffee. If you buy them any food at all, they will be your best friend, I promise. So invest in them and just hear what they have to say. One of the great things about congregations and churches is that there's no other space in our society I think that we can have these intergenerational relationships where, you know, an 85 year old can be good friends with a nine year old, or a 20-something can be great friends with a 15 year old. And so, I think that's an incredible opportunity that we just need to invest in. So yeah, invest in your teens. Hear what they have to say and talk about the real issues. You don't have to have all of the answers, but I think it's, it's just so helpful to have a space where teens can wrestle with things like at the beginning of the year, we talked a lot about creation, and how that relates to science, and if it does, and you know what, what does our Bible say about creation? Do we have to take it literally, or do we have to, you know, our all of those things that come with the creation narrative, if it’s theoretical or allegorical or literal, and so talk about it, and it's okay if you don't have all the answers. I think they just want to maybe rationalize and wrestle some things out.
Another thing is that there were so far out from and I'll say biblical literacy, not in knowing theologically about what things mean, but just in terms of, like, Bible stories, a lot of these teens who are coming don't grow up, necessarily, with a foundation that they know the story of Abraham and Sarah or of Noah or anything like that. And so, yeah, we just have a real opportunity that they come in and are able to maybe learn some of that without a lot of the baggage that maybe some of us grew up in the church and had to unlearn later in life. So, yeah, that's, that's, that's my spiel for that.
[John Borthwick]
No, I appreciate that, Rachel. I appreciate that I think, I think back, since we've been riffing off each other's calls, there's a sense of, I really, really valued the experience of being, I mean, I was an only child, so it helped. I was, you know, my parents were talkers, so that helped. But every single Sunday from the time I was 13 until, you know, going to university, 18/19, years old, every Sunday that I was expected to go to church. After the church service, there was a table of older persons that I was always welcome to sit at, because there was no other young people. So, I mean the, you know, no disrespect to the segregation of the church, where we put young people somewhere and older people somewhere and kids somewhere. But in my experience, it was, it was one of those intergenerational experiences where I got to sit and either listen in on older people talking about life, the universe and everything, like how, yeah, they'd be talking about politics, they'd be talking about all these things, but also the way that they were wired. I felt a part of it was like, John, what do you think about this? Or John, what's going on with you, or what's happening here or that? And my parents weren't even at the table sometimes. So it was just me, and this, this group of older adults who were happy to see me. They knew me by name, and they were interested in what I had to say, but also I was just welcome to be at the table and not contribute, but listen and be a part of. Yeah I mean, I think that's so valuable. If we can find ways of connecting older adults with younger people in some way, in a healthy, safe, positive way, that can be really, really good.
[Rachel Kennedy]
Yeah, wow totally Yeah.
[John Borthwick]
Rachel, is there anything I haven't asked you that you were just, just hoping I would ask dying to say, dying to say about or any parting comments as we, as we wrap up our conversation?
[Rachel Kennedy]
I don't think so, I wish I, I wish I had something super profound to say at the end, but don't
[John Borthwick]
Don’t sell yourself short. I think there's been some many profundities. There's been many profundities throughout this conversation. So I've been I'm so appreciative you. Appreciative of you, Rachel, and glad you found your way to Knox College - finally, like way to go! And grateful to have you as a Ministry Forum intern this year. It's been awesome to be able to get to know you better and wish you well as you proceed in whatever that call might continue to call you into the months and years ahead. We'll be we'll be watching and waiting and seeing. Thanks, Rachel.
[Rachel Kennedy]
Well, thank you for having me.
[Outro]
Thanks for joining us today on the Ministry Forum Podcast. We hope today's episode resonated with you and sparked your curiosity. Remember, you're not alone in your ministry journey. We're at the other end of some form of technology, and our team is committed to working hard to support your ministry every step of the way. If you enjoyed today's episode, tell your friends, your family, your colleagues. Tell Someone, please don't keep us a secret, and of course, please subscribe, rate and leave a review in the places you listen to podcasts, Your feedback helps us reach more ministry leaders just like you, and honestly, it reminds us that we're not alone either, and don't forget to follow us on social media at Ministry Forum, on all of our channels. You can visit our website@ministryforum.ca for more resources keeping up with upcoming events and ways to connect with our growing community, until next time, may God's strength and courage be yours in all that you do. May you be fearless, not reckless, and may you be well in body, mind and spirit, and may you be at peace too.